Well, hello everybody and welcome to this episode of the Family Business Podcast. I am your host, Russ Haworth, and I am very excited today to be joined by Dr. Dennis Jaffe and Dr. Cynthia Scott. Now, Dennis and Cynthia know each other relatively well. I'll let them explain how they know each other, but they have come together and written a book called Living Your Values, which is the topic of today's episode. We're going to dive into

all things individual and family values and I'm really, really looking forward to the conversation. But before we get into that, perhaps I can ask each of you to introduce yourselves. And Cynthia, if you can introduce yourself and then Dennis introduce yourself and maybe give us a bit of background on the book as well. So Cynthia, over to you.

Sure.

Mm-hmm.

Sure. Well, I am a leadership development and change consultant. And I've been working in that area for my whole professional career. I I got into it by being an anthropologist and being very curious about how does a culture change? How do you how do you get people to do things in a in a different way? health behavior, and then that led to work with families and with organizations because those are the

places that that happens. And I would say that I have continued to be very interested. My my research has always been on resilience and who does well and how can we, you know, translate thick research into practical things. So this book is really a culmination of it's actually the second book in the series. We did this book in nineteen ninety-three and

Yeah.

Values have not gone out values have not gone out of style and actually I think they've come back into a real central position. So good to good to have this chance to talk about this today.

Fantastic. Thank you. And Dennis?

Well, I've been in FFI and the family business field since the FFI was was formed. And I got into family business because I was invited to a gathering that was being held at USC to talk about family business. And I was a a a management professor and I also had a specialty in family systems. So

Mm.

they kind of included me in the invitation and and I showed up and going to that meeting you know basically changed my life because I heard wow family business I had never thought about that and here here is this whole field that nobody has ever studied and that was just just what I loved. So I've been in doing as a researcher, as a professor, as a consultant, and right now I'm in my

kind of what I call post-career, elder career. And I I work for as a senior research fellow for Banyan Global family business consult family business consultant advisors and I also work as a board member and head of the governance domain for the Ultra High NetWorth Institute. So I do a lot of what I call giving to the field.

And my commitment is to you know, to make you know to bring people in and to create a new generation. and and this book is kind of sharing something that we've been doing. So let me say something about the values book, which is is something that we've as Cynthia said, we started we we first started work on values in the in the eighties.

and and we r did a workshop and the the the origin of the values work came when some when we asked people to kind of write down their values and somebody said what are values and so it's here's a kind of a nice founding story. So we who are as as r as Russ hinted we are married to each other we have not worked together this is the first time we worked together in a long time

Mm-hmm.

But we went back to our our motel room and they had a a wall and there was this new invention called post-its. And we took out a pack of post-its and we said, let's write values and and we put them up on the wall. And they were all up all over the wall, all these values we came up with. And then we said, Well, let's cluster them together into themes. And so we started bringing them together. So we started making piles of post-its and we said, Well, what are we gonna do with these? Let's let's create

A deck of cards. So we created a deck of values cards that we've been you know that's been out there for 20 or 30 years and we've updated it and revised it, and and this book is you know kind of the current state of what our work is in in values. So let me say the the book is called Living Your Values, and it's about the fact that that values are not.

Fantastic.

not words and not statements. they're actions and things that we do. And and this transition from things that you believe and things that you care about to things that you do is not automatic. So there were there was originally two books. one was gonna be a book about personal values, and we'll we'll talk about that. We have you personal values, what we call personal values pyramid, and people sort out and define.

Mm-hmm.

their personal values. And we believe that's it's kind of like your your your your fingerprint, your your identifier. Who you are is partly based on your values and the values that you actually act on. And and this is a way for people in a family in an organization and a team to get to know each other and say, how are you different? How are you special? What what what what makes you a person? So the first half of the book is and this is not a a a conceptual book. This is a

How to book. It has learning activities. It's got it's it's got all kinds of you know kind of things that you do and ways in which you can actually work on your values. So the first half is about personal values, and then and that's your that's your personality, that that's your you know who you are. But then it shifts to the second half. Values are also things that make up a culture, a culture of a family.

culture of an organization, a culture of a team. They're they're kind of shared values and they're different. It's not the same as your values. You are much more than your family or your organization. So the question is how do you fit your values into the shared values of other people and create values for your family or your organization. And so we have a lot of cases and stories about how families particularly and also organizations

Mm-hmm.

are defining their values. So it's a lot of learning, what we call learning journeys, a lot of you know, write write in, a lot of activities for people to do. And the book is we also have online tools so it's a whole there's a whole values you know kind of apparatus that we've we've done and this is our way of kind of sharing it with

people in the field and the people in fields that are adjacent and coaching and organizations that that teams that want to look at look at values in an in an active, engaged way. And we'll talk about what that is.

Yeah, fantastic. And I think j just before we dive into to some of the questions that we've mapped out, I I think so I I've I'm a proud owner of the book. I have been using it and referring back to it on many occasions. And I think just to pick up again on what you were saying about the depth of learning and discovery and exercises that are within the book, I think does justice to the fact that this isn't a topic that should just be

skimmed over that it's a kind of a a nice to have. It it kind of highlights to me the essential nature of understanding individual collective values, how and why they might be different, and and we'll get into the factors to to the fact that that's probably okay in in in that sense. so highly recommend the book to to anyone who is either within a a family or advising families and and we'll put a link in in the show notes.

Yeah.

And let me just give give a give a fact about about the importance. So I did a lot of you know I've done study of hundred year families, and by a incredibly wide margin I asked each of these hundred families, what was the most important thing about that that accounts for you being a hundred year three generation plus family? And the the answer that kind of people gave way, way above ever any other answer was values.

Ha ha ha.

and and back in we did our early research in the nineties, we came up with several shared values and and there there's a lot of discussion about you know w why sharing values are are important and we'll we'll talk about that, that values are important to creating a culture and and a a way for people to not just

be together but want to be together and and and feel nurtured by being together. values are a a connector.

Yeah, absolutely.

I think I think Russ, I think there's something else that that's important and why values are kind of coming back in a wave now is because values are the foundation of people ha think being able to think of a future or a future that could be. And that's the aspirational values. Because this is a time of a lot of cynicism and people are feeling kind of like, you know, what what what do I come back to? Who what do I stand for?

And I think that, you know, everybody's kind of possessed by getting their purpose and and you know, finding the thing that they're sp they're calling. And basically values offer the foundation for that. And so they're almost looking for purpose. But what we found is that values are the place that that purpose comes from and regenerates from. And so it and they and your values don't change a lot, but they will shift because

What you valued in your twenties may be very different than what you values in your sixties or seventies. So that that kind of looking for hope, a place to find a a grounding and a return to something that's always been important to you may manifest itself very differently. So I think that that it's a fresh topic. And and I think it's also something that people are are looking for. And that's why we put so much on the here's how how to do it.

'Cause it's like it it's like, you know, I I I shared Dennis's experience with a you know, I was working with a group of physicians in their five day leadership course to make them chiefs and had the same experience, that kind of shared experience of going and asking people what their values were, and they they look or they say something like the Boy Scout Pledge or you know, they they they don't know what you're asking about. And so because they are

Mm.

Mm-hmm.

in some ways unconscious and unformed, they can't be the drivers and the sustainers of your resilience and your foundation. So it's time to look at your values and it will give you hope in in how to make sense of this kind of complex world.

Absolutely. A and with that in mind and given what we've already covered around the importance and relevance of values, what do you think why do you think families or advisors, what do you think it is that they get most wrong when it comes to starting that conversation about values?

Well, so this is this is interesting. So so people have values lists, and they say these are our values, as if that means something. And and we we we joke that that we didn't call this book listing your values, we called it living your values. And listing your values is a is a very nice first step. You have a list of values, but then what what do they mean? what do I mean when I say stewardship? What did I mean when I say

Mm-hmm.

you know, partnership or teamwork or you know respect for individuals. so it it a word doesn't do anything and it certainly doesn't communicate much. So so we have to the idea of of living your values is a process, first of all, of defining clearly what your values are. what do you mean by your values? And and then the other question is

How do they connect with each other? If you have 10 values and you say, well, I'm going to work on this value, what if the things that you're doing for that value conflict or don't support another value? And this is this is a challenge. So there's a lot of things that come up when you say living your values, and the easiest thing to do is to just rest on the names and and not do anything. But the hardest thing to do is to begin to say, let's dig in and let's see how we're doing. Are we

Yeah.

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Are these values that we're just talking about or are they values that are really living parts of who we are?

And I think another thing that they get wrong is they'll call up and especially in startups or corporations, they say, we want values. Come and come and give us values. And I say, you already have values. You just you have to do it's like archaeology, you have to brush them carefully and and have forums where people can tell you what's important to them. And this is where this is the foundation of engagement. You know, people don't want to just see hats, cups, and t-shirts and

you know, lists of values, they want to be able to talk about them. And the most important thing with leaders, they want to hear the leaders talk about values. They want to hear what you as a person value. And then they can build their kind of connection and engagement on that. So this isn't something you can copy. You could you can't you can't

Okay.

people also say, what are what are the most successful values? I said that's that it it it's very contextual. It's like what is your strategy? What are you working on right now? What's important? So with families as well as other kinds of organizations, I think that there's there's a a resurgence of but it's a discipline. It's this is not an icebreaker exercise. This is not a this is not a let's have a meeting and you know do our values in one hour and we're done.

Uh-huh.

So this is the kind of an ongoing stewardship as Dennis says.

And let's one of the things that we began to do in the book is to differentiate some of the things that people conflate in values. For example, yeah, Cynthia was just saying, well, leaders tell you your values. Leaders' values are the legacy values. They're they're often the founding of the family business, the elders, the grandparents, the founders' values. And these are the legacy values. And that's one kind of values, but the world has changed.

And and so the the next kind of values is what are the the current values and then we divide up values that we espouse and how do we act on them? So there's there's kind of espoused values and acted on values and sometimes they're actually the opposite each other, like people talk about r respect and then you know the the the the the the the espoused value is respect.

And the actual value is is cover your butt, you know, make your boss look good, don't don't rock the boat. and these are all the values, and and they're they're the f the a team or an organization has to look at that different. So that that's the values, current values. Then there are values that are emerging. The world is changing, new things are happening, the world of the young people across generations.

Mm-hmm.

Because we're in families, we're always dealing with across generations. The next generation is coming up and is looking at things differently. So the fourth thing that values have is our aspirational values. What are the values we have to be working on now that are kind of new and because of the new realities of the world? So past values, current values, espoused and actual, and future values, and these are all different as as well as they're it's different.

individual values are different than shared values. I could be I I can love music, but it may not be relevant to my work in the organization and it may not be something that's shared by my family, but I can still be passionate about it. So all these different value sets are different. And one of the things about values work is you have to do some differentiating about what you're talking about when you say values because it's not

Mm-hmm.

It's not one thing, it's one word, but it's not one thing.

Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Now I think w one of the things that I've seen in in throughout my career. So I've worked for various different sizes of of organizations who used values in different ways. And some w would have sort of big organizations would have people come in and go, These are the types of things you want your staff to be doing. That these are the values you sh they should be demonstrating. And I mean I remember one of the organizations, now I'm not

Yeah.

Yeah.

I'm not going name them, but but also in in terms of the value. The value is honesty. And it was like, well, is that not I know values you can have an individual value of honesty. I'm not not trying to diminish the value of that. But in an organization sometimes where the you're kind of forced down this generic, let's pick five out of a hat type route, it doesn't deliver the depth of conversation that you're talking about in terms of understanding what do we mean by those.

values and I think that's something the book does so well is it guides people through how to understand their values and what that means to them. But c can you speak again to to in some of your experiences around values? Perhaps families that have done it well that haven't gone through the process of going right, we need five because five seems to be a a good number. Let's pick five names out of a hat and they become our values. That that's kind of the the simplest

Yeah.

and probably least effective way. But what what are some ways you've seen it done well?

Well let me give give some examples. So the first thing is the selecting of values i is not just picking. There's legacy values and they're important. But sometimes, for example, I w we were part of a big major company that had a a one-week values festival, and 20 or 30,000 people registered values and talked about things that they considered important, and the value selection.

Mm-hmm.

process was to take these and kind of organize them. And now with with AI and you know, and you know, we could do that quite easily and come up with what are the values that that most people feel are important. and and particularly you know w what what the next question is, what do they mean? And the values companies we have four mo company examples in family values.

examples in the book where we talk about how a company, for example, had these values, and then they started to meet as teams and say, How do we live these values? why when are these values difficult? For example, you know, we we want to sell things. Do we overpromise? that that that's a good thing for salespeople, but is that honesty? what what happens when you have a problem and do you tell the customer?

Mm-hmm.

Mm.

or not. So these are the kinds of things that the people had to talk about. And and in the f in the the the groups that really worked on values, they also had workshops where they said, let's talk about the value. Let's talk about when this is difficult. And that's when they talked about pressures and they talked about pleasing your boss and they talked about you know, being told don't don't don't rock the boat. And how do we how do we do that in the

Mm-hmm.

Mm.

families that really and organizations that believed in values really did things to support people. For example, one family had a had an award for a person who had done something that really exemplified the values and challenged the company. So it it they they they they looked for gadflies for people that were initially unpopular but who had stood up for values.

there there are ways that people can be rewarded for following values. There are there are honors and ways that people can be respected and and and called out. And all of these things happen in value based organizations where people are told you act on the values. You you don't there are not rules, the there are guidelines and and the values are are guiding you. Cynthia, yeah.

There's there's another there's another thing because what's interesting is as you were saying is like the it it often the the mistake is that they come down through sort of levels in the organization and then by the time they get to the the the the the restaurant, they are just pieces of paper. So one of the one of the works that we did was to take have a restaurant that was very a global fast food enterprise.

Mm-hmm.

That wanted to give the ch chance to the people who are in the direct customer service. They these people have no fancy training. There's no break room. You know, they're so the values were kind of on a poster. And what people did was they say, How have we been manifest how how have we been living out this value? What does it look like here? You know, when somebody comes in, what what what's our on-the-line kind of experience? So I think that there's

The mistake is that somehow if the top team does them, they trickle down or they the the actual engagement and as Dennis keeps saying, the the putting the behavior, what does that look like? What does honesty look like here? You know, what what or or let's let's share stories. See that's the other thing. It's portable. You don't have to like write stuff down. You just say, what did we do last last month where we demonstrated this value? Or

How did this, you know, challenge us or where did we get stuck or caught? So it's the feedback loop and the ability of in some ways ask listening to the people make their own sense of the value, not not, you know, writing the booklet and sending the handbook down and, you know, kind of telling everybody what to do. So I think that's a real miss often, that they stop and they, you know, kind of just pass it on or roll it out. So

Hmm. And Dennis, you mentioned AI as a as an effective tool for helping to organize data. I guess in some ways there's also a danger now in the kind of AI age that organizations or individuals will go to AI and go, what value should I say I have so that it makes me look good? and ha again, I think what what's so great in the book is you're encouraging people to actually self reflect on

Exactly.

what's important, not just saying what people think should be said. And I I think that's a key distinction.

It's it it that's that's why we started even writing the book when we saw these values lists and we would laugh at some of them and they had no meaning. And yet and yet the families and the organizations that we talk about in the book are really living their values. So I was gonna read something. So so you say there's a value. So here's a value. This is a f a family that has six values.

And the values are not just words. A word doesn't tell you anything. So, what they've done here is a value of inclusiveness, and they have a definition covering comprehensive stated limits and extremes, inclusiveness, family value each individual is part of the glue that binds the family together, and we value each person's uniqueness. We appreciate, respect, and foster.

Diversity of thought in order to build a culture of trust and encourage the potential for creative solutions. So that's what inclusiveness means to this family. And the whole family created it together. Then they say, what's the anti-value? What's the opposite of that? The opposite is only a few make decisions, only one event throughout the year, you're either in or you're out. all those kinds of things are are against the value.

Mm-hmm.

Then they have a story of inclusiveness where the family did something that really that really made that true. And and then they talk about it in terms of the family. what do we what do we you know, what do we do? So that there there's a lot of things that were done, and now they have a book about the values with stories and things like that, not just a bunch of words. A word meme seems to be meaningful. I believe in stewardship.

You believe in it. Everybody believes in it. But who knows what it is? And what happens if you say, okay, give me an example in now in in things that you did for stewardship. And then you have to say something concrete. And this is where values become real. Because if you can't name something you did, then how is that your value? You say, I like it.

And and the other thing that you're shock talking about, the value the families that keep them vibrant, they return to them. There's feedback loops. You see a value i no one's gonna be perfect all the time. You're gonna stub your toe, you're gonna, you know, stumble, you're gonna stuff is gonna vex you. And so these feedback loops in the in the meetings or where do you get the the data in that said we really blew it on this one. We said we, you know, wanted.

to this. So it's that feedback loop and the constant refreshment. And especially when you have a next gen coming in, it's like that what do they what do they bring to it? Don't let them get stale and and you know fixed. It's like how how does a 20-year-old see respect? How does a 20-year-old see these things? So that's that's a way there's there's a there's a feedback that that is installed and a and

time to have those discussions, not just sort of nod and say, we're fine. So I think that there's there's this kind of specificity. It also creates accountability. You see, if you don't if you don't have any of this kind of what does it look like and what is it not, the anti-value, then i it it's like, you know, free game. Anybody, you know, remember whatever you want to. But the the the that's where the the the strength

Yeah.

of a family enterprise really across generations really is seen.

Yeah, and I think t to your So, go on, Dennis.

We did we did an act we did an activity that we we did an activity that really helped with that. First we would just ask families for their values in general, and we ended up with pretty boring lists, you know, you know, respect, intimacy, competence, you know, blah blah blah. it was not very interesting. Then we asked a different question. We had everybody, and we'll talk about this in a little bit, everybody create their own values.

Okay.

And then we said, let's go around the room and each person in the family or in the team talk about a value that you consider really important that this family needs to do better. You want to you're going to be a values champion. What value do you want to bring to the family as an aspiration to improve? And then you got some really interesting ones. You know, we have to work better on inclusiveness, for example. We we a lot of people in the family don't feel included.

Mm-hmm.

Or feel like they're not special because they're not engaged in governance. So we have to work on that. so when we say if you were a values champion, what does this family need to do better? that produced a much more interesting discussion. And everybody ended up being a values champion for a value that they felt the family needed. And then you get a bunch of everybody in the family saying, Here's a value I want to bring to the family, and then they say, Aha, now what are these values we wanna we wanna build in the

Yeah.

family and that was a lot more a lot richer and fuller discussion than just what are our values. Similarly when you when you ask people, let's talk about now how how we've done. Let's grade ourselves on each of these values. Let's talk about what we do and what we might do that we that we don't do.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. I and I think part of again picking up on on both of your your points around that, it it ensures that families by going through this process, it ensures that families are taking ownership of that as opposed to it being imposed upon them. So it becomes theirs as opposed to something it's the kind of analogy I like to think of is it's like having a personal trainer and then the personal trainer does the press ups for you. It's like you get no benefit, you get no value from that.

Okay.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

So

So so you go, I've got a personal trainer and but but nothing's changed. But so but if you take ownership of living the values, as you as you rightly point out, you're the ones that get the results from that. You get the positive as you you've talked about saying here in terms of the feedback loops, in terms of what's what have we done well, what haven't we done well, how does that align with our values, how have we been living those? I I think it's again, it's an important distinction in terms of the depth that's needed when exploring values. It's not this

One hour, as you say, let's pick pick five and off we go.

I wanna I wanna pull the thread maybe Russ into into resilience a bit because resilience is this big thing and we you know lots of research and all this stuff about we know who does well. Well people who do well have that kind of coherence. And people get a sense of coherence from as you say, engaging in it themselves, making making their own definitions. They don't they don't copy them from the dictionary. So

Coherence is one of the key factors of people being able to navigate and thrive in very disruptive hard environments. So so that's what back to you know why values matter now is it's a refreshment. It's a it's a affirmation of I really do believe these things and and this matters to me. So so you know, c tying it to something.

that everybody wants resilience, everybody wants to, you know, survive and thrive. It's like this values work helps people do that.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, and and again j just touching on that, because I think resilience is such an important topic. And within you may be aware, within within the field of positive psychology, they talk about resilience variables. And one of those being optimism, which when you're talking about values as kind of an aspiration of what might be in the future, it's providing that level of optimism for people to focus on.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yes.

And also that the variable of self awareness, which is what we're talking about again in in terms of understanding your values, understanding the behaviours that you want to see as a in relation to that value. which kind of brings me on to I read I think it's an article, it's it's one of Jay Hughes's hidden gems on the the Jay Hughes Foundation website that that Matt Wesley put together.

And he talks about values as kind of expectation. This is what I'm expecting in in terms of if I say honesty is something that is a value, again, just to go back to honesty is like the default one to discuss. It's not just how I want to behave, but it's also how I expect others to behave. And what you're talking about in terms of the storytelling and the ability to understand what behaviours link to that, it kind of brings it.

Mm-hmm.

all together for for me in that sense. D do you share that view? Do do you do you have any views on on that kind of values as an expectation?

Mm-hmm.

Well, values is is i people values are not a thing. And and people what we call this reifying, making it into a thing and then say values cause behavior. Well, values, if it's not a thing, it doesn't cause anything. Values is a word and a word has meaning, and a meaning is something that you have to define. And so the it's really I what I see is what we're we're talking about is values need to be

defined and expressed together rather than than just named. naming seems to be it's like I I you I always I you say well in an interview, I believe in this and so yet you know the other person says, yes, I do too. And they just nod at each other and smile and they feel a sense of connection, but they haven't really communicated. They haven't really said what that means. And and this is where

You know, people in families come into well well, we believe in fairness. And families are always fighting about what's fair. you know, what what's it should it be equal? should it be this, should it be that? If you look at all the family lawsuits, they're all about different definitions of fairness. So I think, you know, th this the this this insight is values are not things and they don't do things and they're not they're not, you know, behavior drivers.

Mm-hmm.

There are concepts that have to do with who we are and what we do, and what we do is important, not what we say we believe. and and and that's I think the insight. But I I'd like to share shift and and say we we've been talking about shared values, and that's the second half of the book, and we've got a whole first half of the book, and we have a principle that we believe very, very strongly, which is before you do shared values.

I I think that

Mm-hmm.

And this is what you were talking about about self-awareness. You have to know your personal values. And we, as a rule, say personal values and sharing personal values comes before you do shared values. You have to introduce yourself and understand the diversity of people in in whatever team, group, family there is before you can do shared values, because you have to respect the differences. And the whole first half of the book.

is about that. And you know, maybe Cynthia, why don't you, you know, just kind of d describe our our model and our way of of approaching personal values.

Mm-hmm.

And I and I think actually the you you brought up, you know, it this is uncomfortable work. You know, this is not this is not you are gonna be uncomfortable because it's ask this is work that asks you to articulate your own self in the world. And and there's so many kind of quick ways of assessments and I'm a this and you're a that it's like little little quick the co creation

Of the shared understanding of something like what does respect look like? This is this always comes up, you know. Everyone wants respect, but respect is very l is the behaviors that are attached to respect are different. And there's there's an opportunity for co-creation because it isn't like Dennis said, you know, this is what respect is, and either you're doing it or you're not doing it. Let's let's find the

The accordion, let's stretch this, especially when you're looking at multiple generations or cross cultures. You know, what does respect look like in a married in coming in from a very different culture? So that that's the to be able to be tolerate the discomfort of not having a simple answer and being curious and and asking how how has that come up?

W one of the questions in the personal values kind of part of this is how how does that played out in the last two months in your life? Because if you ask people to talk about it for the you know, your whole life, it nobody can remember that. So but the last we we do the last two months you know, how has how which of these values has has been important, challenging, or you know, given you you know, given you some guidance?

So by by putting a container on it and and holding that that line of inquiry, I think it's people kind of, you know, you know, values is something that people could do forever. So now, how give me a story of how respect was something that you struggled with in the last two months. So that that piece is kind of that's that's bringing it down into actual behavior and and

And then you get the closeness. Then say, when I was with my kids, you know, then the story gets thicker. It's not this, I was respectful, I'm always respectful. It thickens the story and the narrative becomes stronger. And especially in these multi-generational families, that's what is past is not the list of the values, but the narrative about what Grandma Rose would have said. You know, that's the piece that that thickens and and

Yeah.

Yeah.

Uh-huh.

and increases the capacity to have coherence and resilience throughout a family across generations.

But we in a di there are a lot of values, things l where people end up listing a a bunch of values. We have a model and I think that's where we we've gone further. You have about you have seven, ten values that you say, these are my values, and the question is how do they relate to each other and which ones are more important? And so we have started to in in creating it, we create a pyramid.

values that we call a personal values pyramid where you sort them and prioritize them. So you have a values at the top of the triangle and the bottom of the triangle and and you look at the more important ones as as being more of your closer to your center. The other th

Well, you ha and you have to make a choice. It's what the people res they we have sixty-four values and you sort them. And people say, This is very hard. You know, I I don't like to do this. No, I I agree. It's not pleasant. And and because what it it's it's it's giving you a chance to articulate inside yourself. And and the part of sorting and then ranking, people you can't do sixty-four values. You can't even do twenty-five values.

You know, you gotta get it down to something that you can use as a way to steer yourself. So back to you, Dennis, you were kind of going through the model.

So so then the next question is you you have sixty four values. What we found, and this is something we found in our original post its on the wall, is there are clusters, there are different themes. And so we came up with in the with the values, we came up with eight different clusters. And four of the clusters have to do with your own style, empowerment, relationship, and the others four have to do with your

Yeah.

way of being in the world, what's important to you, connectedness, relationship, lifestyle. And so we look at these different clusters and we take the values and you can see that there are cluster, certain clusters that you have more values in than others. So we have we call those the values drivers. And usually people end up with not just 15 values, but they have two one or two drivers that are these are the core

themes, interconnectedness, relationship, empowerment that are that drive you. So we have drivers. And then in addition to the your current values, as Cynthia was saying, we also ask people to now look ahead and say, look at the values that that aren't on your list of main values. Which ones are important to you that you want to develop in the future. And so you develop, you look at aspirational values, you look at a bunch of values that you want to create.

Mm-hmm.

So people have a personal values thing and they have a connection. they have priorities, they have drivers and themes, and they have values that they're moving towards and values that they currently practice. And this is your values. Everybody has a values, personal values pyramid that that is their definition of who they are that they can share with others. And so we have these pyramids and

There we have stickers and cards. if you have them in person or we do it online and you have you get your personal pyramid, then you can share them with others. So if you're a team, you could talk about these are my values and this is what I want to bring to this team. If you're it's the same with the family, you can you can talk about you as a person, how you want to be part of this group, and it's a wonderful, meaningful conversation. Then when people understand how different they are.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And what everybody stands for, then you begin to move into the shared values. Shared values as a family, shared values as a team. And and only then, when people understand the differences, can people really talk about what do we what do we share together? and with a family. It's not just what we share together now. It's, you know, what did our grandparents teach us, and then where do we want to go in the future? And so there's past.

Mm. Yeah. Yeah.

Mm.

Mm-hmm.

present and future values and you need to d distinguish them. So there there's a lot of work to do, but it it begins with the differences with each person knowing who they are, self awareness by knowing your values. Sermon over.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. and it r reminds me that the so in in the spirit of sharing, I came to a a PPI conference a few years back where the two of you hosted a workshop where we ran through the values cards and we did the sourcing exercise and understanding which ones were were sort of prominent for for us. And I remember my

that's right. I remember that. Yeah. The sorting. Mm-hmm.

Yeah, right.

my the top of my pyramid was kindness what was the the value that I sort of valued most particularly at that time I I may go through the exercise again and see whether I still think kindness is is as important. But but it again it reminded me that I think it's important to be kind, but I also find it difficult when I see others not being kind. It and again that kind of understanding through storytelling that you're talking about means that it

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

People shouldn't necessarily feel a pressure. And I've had this question with families that I've worked with where they go, well, what happens if we don't have the same individual values? And you go, well, that it shouldn't be an aspiration for it. I don't think it's possible really, even though you've grown up in the same family, to have identical values because they're so personal and so down to our our lived experience as well. But but having those conversations and talking through.

What does that mean for you? Why is it why is it important? Utilising stories. I love the idea of the the recency of it as well. So that we're not trying to look back to, well, when I was seven, this happened and it made me because our memories of when we were seven, I mean it's probably completely wrong anyway. Yeah. So so I think again, it it kind of the the process that you've designed, the the methodology that you you use to take people through this.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Little little salty, yeah.

Is something that is progressive in terms of understanding yourself better so that you can contribute to the conversation around shared values from a more informed position as well. And I think that's really quite an important step of it. And the significance of understanding self before going into the the group side. And j just a little, whilst I'm on my soapbox, a little rant around the fact that very often families just get created as one thing

Mm-hmm.

that they they are a family and that's what how they they must all be homogenous and I again I think your work in this area highlights the fact that we should celebrate the diversity and the difference within values as a way of communicating what's important to to each of us. Is that something you would kind of echo or see see in your own work?

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. I think I think was it it's often discovered in the married ins. You see, this is our family and these are our values and how does this new person, you know, how can we make them like us? And what's interesting is the married ins often bring something different. They bring they bring they bring a a different perspective.

And and you don't want them to I use my hands kind of, you know, on top of each other or d is there a div is there somet they need to be sort of going in the same direction, but but you don't have to force them. This is not those organizations of the past where everybody had to dress the same way and be the same way. The organizations, the enterprises that are gonna survive ha have that diversity in them and they're they're much more

flexible and resilient in some in many ways because they can they can see, we're directional. We we we all you know we we we're a family of red and blue. You know, we really like these things matter to us. But your red is different than our red. Or, you know, g the clusters give people a way to have shared directionality without being exactly the same.

So I think I think that that's especially as as we become more global and and our the especially long term families have to deal with so many more challenges than they than they had before. So your your point, Russ, is is it's the conversation, it's the co creation and and it's the appreciation. And you're not strong family has diversity.

And and you and you grow from that. You you create your own skunkworks for the next gen to do their their initiatives. So that anyway, so we're we're getting to the end of this, so I wanna make sure. I think I think there's something about

Yeah.

I I wanna most of our work actually isn't Dennis and Cynthia don't come and do the values for you. We we really wanna empower people. a lot of most of the people who do this are advisors and they are coaches and there are other kinds of people. And what we've really tried to do, you mentioned Russ, is make a methodology so that other people can do this work. We we could we can't we we can't be enough places and so

Okay.

the the kinds of you know training or that's why writing this book with all these kind of how-to steps in it gives I think a lot of advisors courage because th they're scared to talk about this stuff and and very you know like my gosh what if they you know whatever so I think the the first step in is the personal values and and you stop there you can stop there you can hold there you can kind of give the family

Mm. Yeah.

A chance to you know expand and understand and then you can go to the the family values and the and the group values. But I think I think it's a stepwise progression. It isn't something you do in one one offsite or one family meeting and you're done. So but but I think it's supporting the relationships that people have with their advisors, coaches, other family members. I just had a s a second gen kind of

do an interesting pre piece because he wanted to do the values, the cards with the the elder generation because he had them all in one room. But he also wanted to include the next gen who, you know, were out busy and weren't going to come to the meeting. He did the online and then brought their data in and kind of used that as a place to have so a hybrid way of having the conversation.

And and it changes as as people, you know, as as their lives change. So and this was this was a next gen person, not an advisor, and he just said, I want to do this with my family. I said, Okay, you know, take the toolkit, go. So I think I think it's a dissemination of the innovation. And and and that's the other thing is we we don't certify people to do this. We you know, we don't hold on to it. Our our intention here is to really

Okay.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

disseminate the innovation and let lots of people we have a global a global group of people, two or three hundred people who are actively using it. We we bring them in and say, what do you learn? You know, what are you finding? You know, they it's like teach each other. It it it's not a thing, as Dennis said. It's not a a methodology that you must do. What are you finding? What what's the latest thing that you're experimenting with?

Mm-hmm.

So I think it's the li it's the aliveness that we want in in the actual we learn a lot and and one of the things that we just we just did a off site with about 30 CEOs a a couple weeks ago. And one of the things that I often do is I will do my own values as they do theirs because it helps me pace myself about how long and I go, you know, what's changed for me?

Yeah.

So it's a it's something that you can refresh and and and you don't need to kind of have somebody tell you it's time to refresh your values, but it's like your your life changes and it's that that kind of re self awareness is is very helpful for people. So

Mm.

Absolutely. And I so I'm curious in in terms of obviously we're we're gonna suggest that the the audience go ahead and and buy the book, but but in terms of you've gone through that exercise as an individual and you've understood your values. And then you're coming together as a family or as an an organization to decide what what are our shared values. And so what I'm curious to understand is how do you

Mm-hmm.

go about understanding what is a shared value as opposed to what is an individual value. And and then a second sort of secondary element to that question is how you ensure that there's equal voice in terms of let's take respect for example. That the senior generation might go, well respect means everyone in the coming generations has to respect me in my opinion and I'm probably right and that that means that's what respect is.

Mm-hmm.

And if the rising generation are coming through going, Well, I want to be respected in the same way that my value my opinion is valued, they might agree that respect is the shared value, but how they go about achieving each of those is different. So how how do families navigate agreeing on shared values in in your experience?

Mm-hmm.

They they often they often I mean make have them do task forces. Have it isn't like agreed in the meeting and it's done. They often are like an accord they go out and they come back and they sort of, you know, here's the differences we found or look, you know, this generation sees respect this way, this generation looks at the behaviors. It's not the words, it's the behaviors. What would we do in our meeting? How how how do we design our

our governance. How do we how do we get new people into the decision making process? What do you do with seventeen year old people who who wanna, you know, have an experience? So that it's that it's that you know

Mm-hmm. Well, and and the family has to has to discuss it. the the question the question of you know kind of respect. you know, you talk about it, well, the older generation says people should do what what I say. Is that obedience or is that respect? And how are you respecting the younger people? And and then if you're a 17 year old and you come in, you

They talk.

Listen to me.

and the organization, the family has been going for a hundred years and the family business has been going for a hundred years. you don't come in and say, Here's what I wanna do. You

respect is kind of listening and and finding your place. So there's a lot of conversation and it isn't a cut and dried thing. And it's certainly the thing about values is they're not things that you can say, this is the rule and and the rule is this and you don't do this. It's the opposite of rules. It it it's a guideline and you say, How can I respect my elders and also respect myself? what is what is res

Respectful. How does it fit with the you know, the realities? The the the fact that I'm I'm new and that things have been going on for a hundred years and people in the family have been doing things and learning things. what do I have to learn before I can s say things? There there's a lot of values work is a lot of work and a lot of time and families can't do it in a in a quickie and can't get it it's not something it's ever finished.

It's a it's an evolving process and and that that's what I think this whole values you know activities you know kind of show us.

Yeah.

Well, I think the other part is it's easy to do the personal values. That's what we've it's kind of there's sort of like we've we've you know, we've created a way that an advisor can step into that conversation. The next part, as Dennis says, is like it it depends on what are they trying to solve for? What's the strategy? What's the challenge? It it really fits into a larger piece of work with the family. that that maybe not just an advisor, but

That's you.

somebody who kind of says what you know, th there may be a big challenge and they have to really respond to that challenge. So it it the the step in is easy and I think it's easy to put that in the book. The second part is like it depends. And so and and and that's where the that's where the advisors or the people who help the family midwife this next time in their in their family. And and it

Mm-hmm.

And it doesn't stop. which is good. It's it that's where the l aliveness comes from.

Uh-huh.

Yeah, and and with that in mind, and and again conscious we're we're coming towards the end of our time together today, but w once families have identified and are comfortable with where they're at with their shared values, how do you encourage them to maintain the enthusiasm towards l living and cultivating those values as something that

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

if we look at the polar opposite of spending an hour doing something that's not particularly inspiring, picking five values out of the hat and off we go. That that there's no real emotional connection to that. But the opposite it means that the cultivation is is motivational.

Yeah, right.

Bring it in bring it into the family meeting every every year. Say what what how did we do? You know, tell us stories about how we enacted these five values. You know, let let us share what what what challenged us. So the narrative or the bring a case, you know, bring a case where it was challenged. Bring a case, what did the family do with this? Of selling the ranch, of doing this. It's like how y bring it in and allow people to

build their own narrative of that because that's what's going to give them the the ability to continue that process. So it when you have a family meeting, where's the hour on how'd we do? You know? Or or give us a skit of next gen about, you know, how aligned are we with the next, you know, this. So bring it in as a as a way of give it space rather than just checklist.

And and there's a reality. a sh you are have your values, but your family, your organization, the place you work for, the things you join, those are choices. And sometimes you don't have enough common ground with your family that you want to say, Well, this family is not meaningful for me right now. You're relatives, but you're not you you're not my partners and you're not my you know, my my reference group. And

That's okay. So exit i is a thing. And sometimes you know, if if you're not connected and you don't share the values, you have to say, Hey, I need to go somewhere else. this is not right for me. And people are always exiting, particularly in families, when they grow up in the family and go in different directions. So exit is not you you you do not have to include everybody.

some people will not want to be part of it. People leave organizations all the time and they're asked to leave all the time.

Yeah, fantastic. Well, Dennis, Cynthia, thank you so much for your time. Thank you also for the work and contribution that both of you make to the field. Dennis, I was it jumped to my mind where y you said the

meeting with with the FFI had a profound impact on your life. and I think it's fair to say that the work that each of you do has a profound impact on the lives of many others. So thank you very much for for everything that that you each do. and I very much look forward to speaking to you when we next got the opportunity. Thanks.

Mm.

Right.

Thank you. Thank you, Russ. Thank you. Yes, this is fun.

Thank you. Thank you for doing this.

Good. Wonderful, Russ. Thank you.